Depends who’s asking

A tribute to Bryan Dawe and the late John Clarke

BRYAN DAWE: Mr Clarke, thanks for your time.

JOHN CLARKE: Very good to be here, Bryan. Although I should say at the outset that I’m not.

DAWE: You’re not here.

CLARKE: No.

DAWE: You appear to be here.

CLARKE: I appear to be a great many things. That’s the whole difficulty with appearances.

DAWE: Let’s talk about the new questioning powers.

CLARKE: They’re not new.

DAWE: They’re not new?

CLARKE: They’re from 2003, Bryan. They were temporary.

DAWE: And now?

CLARKE: They’re still temporary. They’ve been temporary for twenty-three years. It’s one of the great continuities of Australian public life.

DAWE: You’ve extended the sunset clause five times.

CLARKE: We’re enormously committed to the sunset.

DAWE: You tried to abolish it.

CLARKE: We did, and I want to be clear about this. We abolished it in the House of Representatives in about half an hour, and then, having listened very carefully to the community, we un-abolished it in the Senate.

DAWE: Why?

CLARKE: Because people noticed.

DAWE: People noticed.

CLARKE: [pause] That wasn’t in the modelling.

DAWE: Who signs the warrant?

CLARKE: The Attorney-General.

DAWE: Not a judge.

CLARKE: A judge is available. The Attorney-General is quicker and has read the material.

DAWE: Who prepares the material?

CLARKE: We do.

DAWE: So you write it, you give it to a minister, and the minister approves it.

CLARKE: It’s a very streamlined process, Bryan. There’s almost no friction in it at all.

DAWE: The person doesn’t have to be suspected of anything.

CLARKE: No. This isn’t a criminal matter. Nobody’s accusing anybody of anything. We’re simply requiring them to attend, to answer everything we ask, and not to mention it afterwards.

DAWE: And if they don’t answer?

CLARKE: Five years.

DAWE: And if they mention it?

CLARKE: Also an offence.

DAWE: So you can’t tell anyone you’ve been questioned.

CLARKE: You can tell us. We already know.

DAWE: You can question a fourteen-year-old.

CLARKE: Under a minor questioning warrant, yes.

DAWE: Two years ago your own organisation told the committee it no longer saw a strong case for that power.

CLARKE: It did say that.

DAWE: So why keep it?

CLARKE: Because we might want it later. It’s like the spare tyre, Bryan. You don’t want to be hunting round for the spare in the dark.

DAWE: A spare tyre for questioning children.

CLARKE: [pause] I’d steer well clear of that phrasing.

DAWE: The Bill adds new grounds. Sabotage. And “promotion of communal violence.”

CLARKE: Yes.

DAWE: What’s that?

CLARKE: Activities directed to promoting violence between different groups of persons in the Australian community so as to endanger the peace, order and good government of the Commonwealth.

DAWE: What does that mean?

CLARKE: I’ve just told you what it means.

DAWE: You’ve told me what it says.

CLARKE: Correct.

DAWE: Does a protest promote communal violence?

CLARKE: A protest is a lawful expression of democratic opinion.

DAWE: So no.

CLARKE: I didn’t say no.

DAWE: Does a placard?

CLARKE: Depends on the placard.

DAWE: Does a chant?

CLARKE: Depends on the chant.

DAWE: Does a newspaper column?

CLARKE: Depends on the column.

DAWE: Does a question?

CLARKE: [long pause] Depends who’s asking it, Bryan.

DAWE: A senator called this secret interrogation in a dungeon.

CLARKE: He was asked to contain himself.

DAWE: Was he wrong?

CLARKE: He was disorderly.

DAWE: That’s not the same thing.

CLARKE: It’s the same outcome.

DAWE: Meanwhile the Special Envoy has told the Royal Commission the ABC and SBS need an independent oversight committee.

CLARKE: They do.

DAWE: They’ve both got an ombudsman.

CLARKE: Internal ombudsmen, Bryan.

DAWE: So you want an independent body to guarantee the independence of an independent broadcaster.

CLARKE: Independently. Yes.

DAWE: Who’d sit on it?

CLARKE: People of standing.

DAWE: Chosen by?

CLARKE: People of standing.

DAWE: And what would it do?

CLARKE: It would review the coverage and determine whether it was balanced.

DAWE: Against what?

CLARKE: Against how it ought to have been.

DAWE: Who decides how it ought to have been?

CLARKE: The committee. That’s the beauty of it, Bryan. It’s entirely self-contained.

DAWE: You’ve got two thousand staff and the best part of six hundred million dollars.

CLARKE: And the poor bastards are flat out. You’ve no idea.

DAWE: Doing what?

CLARKE: I can’t tell you that.

DAWE: The overwhelming majority of Australians will never be questioned under these powers.

CLARKE: That’s right.

DAWE: How do you know?

CLARKE: Because we’ve got a list.

DAWE: Of who won’t be?

CLARKE: Of who might be. Same list. You read it from the other end.

DAWE: Has anyone been detained under these powers?

CLARKE: I can’t tell you that.

DAWE: Has anyone been questioned?

CLARKE: I can’t tell you that.

DAWE: Can you tell me whether anyone has been questioned about this interview?

CLARKE: [pause] Not at this stage, Bryan.

Se non è vero, è ben trovato.